Author Topic: Collagen: the best suplament for the joint problems?  (Read 2417 times)

Offline Sergio

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Collagen: the best suplament for the joint problems?
« on: March 23, 2013, 12:01:28 PM »
Here several approuch to this hot topic: naturists versus tradicionalist medicine.

1.   The first is a stander approcuh:   you don't need collagen, you need to produce collagen:   How?

From: http://www.jointrehab.com/knee-pain.htm

When the doctor says: “I am recommending surgery, ultimately you will probably need a knee replacement due to the damage in there.” There are two choices to make when the doctor says these words to you. One, accept your destiny and continue to live with an unstable and painful knee until the surgeon calls, or find a solution to your pain now.
But, How about Prolotherapy?
Prolotherapy is short for “proliferation therapy,” Proliferation, of course, means “rapid production.” What Prolotherapy rapidly produces is collagen and cartilage. Collagen is a naturally occurring protein in the body that is a necessary element for the formation of new connective tissue that holds the skeletal infrastructure together. These include, tendons, ligaments, muscle fascia and joint capsular tissue.
Prolotherapy helps make collagen through a series of injections, not of collagen, but of mild chemical or natural (such as dextrose-sugar) irritants, that stimulates the immune system’s healing mechanism to produce collagen naturally. Making collagen makes for strengthened and restored joints. Restored and strengthened joints makes for permanent pain relief.




Offline Sergio

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Re: Collagen: the best suplament for the joint problems?
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2013, 12:12:20 PM »
2.  Another standart approuch:

 From:  http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/collagen-an-implausible-supplement-for-joint-pain/

.....It could be that collagen supplements provide a meaningful clinical benefit to arthritis and joint pain, but there’s certainly no persuasive evidence to suggest that’s the case. Based on what collagen is, how it’s absorbed, and how we know collagen is actually synthesized in the body, it’s highly implausible that 1200mg of additional protein consumed daily will have any meaningful therapeutic effects. Genacol, like other collagen supplements, appears to be little more than an expensive protein supplement. If you want to supplement with collagen, my suggestion is to skip the supplements, and go for a well-marbled steak. Enjoy it, but don’t expect the steak, or any collagen supplement, to relieve your joint pain.

Offline Sergio

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Re: Collagen: the best suplament for the joint problems?
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2013, 05:38:17 PM »
This time a defense of a high intake of gelatine and collagen protein from the chicken or other poultries after be cooked slooow (more than 8 horus) in order to be availble al this structures that even proteines, its composition in amynoacids is very different from other proteins:

From: http://collagensupplements.blog.com/2011/03/22/the-consequence-of-not-eating-foods-rich-in-collagen/

The Consequence of Not Eating Foods Rich in Collagen

We ate in the past a great deal of collagen. In days of old human beings consumed a diet totally different from our present day, skinless chicken breast on a bed of vegetables designed evening meal.

HOW TO OBTAINED IT


 Grandmother would once put a complete freshly slaughtered and butchered bird into Grandmother’s ceramic pot and popped it in her stove around eight in the morning. The next morning she’d open up the dutch oven, take out the meat, bone fragments & skin & cool off what was still left. This gelatinous liquid is named chicken stock. It’s brimming with nourishment for instance gelatin that had been baked right out of the chicken bone fragments, cartilage material and also the chicken’s very collagen. Granny would probably then make use of this stock as a platform for chicken soup. Not surprisingly, Grandma would throw away the sinewy yucky bird meat within the soup. To make her own soups grandma would use a whole new chicken to put some yummy new poultry meat into the stock to form this soup. The phenomenal foundation that Grandmother had formulated was full of nutrients, and packed with minerals. And that also was only the beginning of the meal!


What happens of you don't cook in the way of the grand mother?

The current trend for “easy food preparation” in addition won’t incorporate the nutrient dense base, chicken stock. This is usually a tremendous nutritionary decrease. When we discontinued cooking stock we all terminated one of the main sources of gelatin (food for the collagen) inside our diet.

The particular result of no longer getting all these nutrient dense food within our meals may be the creation of grade-D collagen inside our bodies. As you probably understand, collagen may be the main element of teeth, cartilage, tendons, bones, ligaments, veins as well as the connective tissue. This kind of structural necessary protein is usually responsible for sustaining the actual firmness of the skin. In its healthful condition, collagen is actually several times more solid than steel per molecule. Another source of nourishment that strengthens collagen that people don’t have normally within our diet in abundance, is actually vit. C.

The key: The features of the collagen protein composition:

Let’s glance at the amino acid content. Collagen consists of 20 amino acids, mostly glycine, proline as well as hydroxyproline, which will together make up about half of the entire amino acid content. If collagen included the whole set of important amino acids it would certainly have tryptophan. In the event that collagen were a well-balanced protein it would likewise have a lot more lysine, much more methionine and much more tyrosine. Thus, it’s missing tryptophan in addition to being lower on lysine, methionine and tyrosine. A positive is that collagen is 10% – 20% more glycine along with proline (a couple of of the amino acids necessary for fast tissue healing).

Collagen as well as its derivative gelatin include a greater portion of l-proline. Proline in addition to hydroxyproline would be the primary amino acids needed to provide for one’s body so that it can produce more of your own collagen. Introducing collagen along with ascorbic acid plus minerals to your diet may be a validated method to grow a lot more & better collagen. The consequence shall be healthier bones, teeth, ligaments, skin, arteries, capillary vessels and veins. Collagen supplements also promotes superior performance of tendons and important joints, more powerful heart muscle & performs a roll in stamina production.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 06:10:32 PM by Sergio »

Offline Sergio

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Re: Collagen: the best suplament for the joint problems?
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2013, 05:54:20 PM »
From the wikipedia:

Multiple prolines and/or hydroxyprolines in a row can create a polyproline helix, the predominant secondary structure in collagen. The hydroxylation of proline by prolyl hydroxylase (or other additions of electron-withdrawing substituents such as fluorine) increases the conformational stability of collagen significantly.[5] Hence, the hydroxylation of proline is a critical biochemical process for maintaining the connective tissue of higher organisms. Severe diseases such as scurvy can result from defects in this hydroxylation, e.g., mutations in the enzyme prolyl hydroxylase or lack of the necessary ascorbate (vitamin C) cofactor.


so the key question is waht happens if the human body does an intake of a meal reach in proline and hydroxiproline??   This will translated as trasformation of the aminoacid to be a fat or another aminoacid  (If we don't eat proline we can make it from the glutamate)  An excess of proline in the body is deangerous for the human because cause several illness.   

As we read in the previous post, the excced intake of this biomecules don't cause a clinical significative improvement in the cronic or acute illnes of the tendoms and joints but people still has faith and conviction.   Maybe the key is a full rich variety of meals, with good gelatin and collagen soruces as well as Vitamin C, D, E and fish oils and also very  important: to train lightly the affected zone in order to increase the blood intake with the essencial nutrients to promote to healing.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 06:08:04 PM by Sergio »

Offline Sergio

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Re: Collagen: the best suplament for the joint problems?
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2013, 06:06:33 PM »
Here is the key: 

First, a three dimensional stranded structure is assembled, with the amino acids glycine and proline as its principal components. This is not yet collagen but its precursor, procollagen. A recent study shows that vitamin C must have an important role in its synthesis. Prolonged exposure of cultures of human connective-tissue cells to ascorbate induced an eight-fold increase in the synthesis of collagen with no increase in the rate of synthesis of other proteins (Murad et al., 1981). Since the production of procollagen must precede the production of collagen, vitamin C must have a role in this step.



So if you increase the intake of vitamince C (100-150 mg / day is sufficient)  as well as high proline and glicine aminoacids source from slow boiled bones (6-8 hours)  while you begin your rehabs program will give you a faster recovery.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 06:11:59 PM by Sergio »

Offline Steff

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Re: Collagen: the best suplament for the joint problems?
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2013, 06:36:26 PM »
I may remember this wrong but I think Steve Reeves used knox gelatine as a easy collagen source.... Not as good
as the real thing but better than nothing. :)
Tom Platz recommended that you eat meat close to the bone if you wanted good joint health.

Offline Sergio

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Re: Collagen: the best suplament for the joint problems?
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2013, 12:34:03 AM »
Very good advices, I think, Steff, and here are a diet sample of my good friend Jason J Duke for healing the same kind of problem:

Bodybuilding is 85% nutrition according to some. The real supplements are the cheapest and the most effective and holistic in action.

Milk and Milk protein
Alfalfa
Cod Liver Oil
Liver Powder
Brewer's Yeast (debittered)
Wheat Germ Oil
Vit C
Kelp
L-Lysine
B12
Trace Minerals

This will last a month and not cost more than 100USD for a one month supply and should be readily available in your country. Take the full program and don't touch a weight for 2-3 weeks before starting.

Otherwise, seek bone marrow slices. Make soups from them. Milk by the quart. Plenty of salad greens (not lettuce) and chew like a bunny as often as possible. Add wheat germ to all baked goods. Eat sea vegetables. Seek out seafood and sunflower seeds for lysine. Eat liver daily. In fact, eat these foods and take them with the supplements.


Read more: http://weightrainer.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=pmview&view=1&id=1723#ixzz2REaBb7tP

Offline Steff

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Re: Collagen: the best suplament for the joint problems?
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2018, 11:17:11 AM »
Here's 2 of the best joint supplements I've tried:

Self Omninutrition Flex N Joint

Bulk powders COMPLETE JOINT RESTORE